Journey to Multifamily Millions

The Keys to Multifamily Success in Expensive Markets with Zihao Wang, Ep 114

• Tim • Season 1 • Episode 114

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Welcome to the Journey to Multifamily Millions podcast, where we dive into real estate investing with the pros! 

In this episode, Zihao Wang, CEO and founder of Motiva Holdings, shares his path from family investments to building a vertically integrated multifamily real estate firm.

Zihao discusses how property management shaped his approach to underwriting, acquisitions, and capital markets. He provides insights into the challenges and benefits of investing in Southern California, sharing strategies to handle cash flow issues and legal complexities in the market.

He also offers tips on building strategic partnerships, understanding market conditions, and positioning yourself for success in multifamily real estate. Whether you're an experienced investor or just starting out, Zihao’s practical advice will help you make informed decisions and capitalize on real estate opportunities.

Tune in for an insightful discussion packed with actionable strategies to grow your wealth through multifamily investing!


Episode Topics

[001:21] Meet our guest, Zihao Wang
[04:01] Transition to Acquisitions and Capital Markets
[08:21] Funding Strategies and Investor Profiles
[11:16] Investing in California: Challenges and Advantages
[19:40] Building Strong Partnerships
[23:43] Future of the Multifamily Market
[29:58] What is one red flag every investor should look out for?
[30:27] What is a myth about the real estate business?
[31:50] Connecting with Zihao



Notable Quotes

  • "The thinking is if you want to be a great investor, you've got to be first a great operator." – Zihao Wang
  • "There's pros and cons of each way... it's easier to handle five investors than having 35, 000 or a hundred $50,000 investors in a deal." – Tim Little
  • "Equity came a lot later simply because it's more relationship-based, whereas debt is much more transactional in nature." – Zihao Wang
  • "Sometimes, giving away some of those major decision rights is actually beneficial to the deal since they would come up with some great ideas that they've experienced in the past." – Zihao Wang
  • "It's easy to get tempted into saying yes to every investor, but for the sake of the investor and yourself, sometimes you have to say no if it's not a good match." – Tim Little



👉Connect with  Zihao Wang



👉 Connect with Tim

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https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/journey-to-multifamily-millions/id1634643497

[00:00:00] Zihao Wang: If you want to be a great investor, you've got to be first a great operator and so it was more just a bridge from being, completely out of the industry to being an investor in a great, And a great person on the finance side, right? So as I moved on to the acquisitions and capital markets side where that's where kind of they saw me growing and You know really developing my company And so it was more just understanding property management and applying those skills into underwriting and acquisitions and by that time, we already had a pretty big portfolio built up. So I wasn't underwriting really small deals. 

[00:01:11] Tim Little: Hello, everyone, and welcome to the journey to multifamily millions. I'm your host, founder and CEO of ZANA Investments, Tim Little. And on today's show, we have with us Zihao Wang. Zihao is the founder and CEO of Motiva Holdings, a vertically integrated real estate private equity firm that specializes in acquiring and operating multifamily properties. Zihao, welcome to the show.

[00:01:33] Zihao Wang: Thank you so much for having me, Tim. Glad to be here.

[00:01:35] Tim Little: And it is great to have you. So I'm excited to learn more about what you're doing at Motiva. But First, please tell us about how you got started in real estate and how you got to where you are today.

[00:01:45] Zihao Wang: Yeah. So I got started in the real estate industry through the family. My parents made their money in the fashion industry and then started investing in real estate back in 2008. More on the passive side. I joined in 2016, as a property manager, actually, managing my family's assets, as well as learning the ins and outs of operations. Then in 2018, I moved into the acquisitions and capital markets side, and then also started managing other people's money through joint ventures. Today we're managing around half a billion dollars worth of investments, deployed into 34 value add and development projects all across the country. and currently we're focused on portfolio growth and exploring different markets of the Sunbelt and Midwest.

[00:02:30] Tim Little: Awesome. And it sounds like you had a real advantage there that a lot of people frankly don't have and that you got introduced to it, through your family. what did that look like at first in terms of, you said you got started in the property management side of things. Did they just start giving you odd jobs or was it like the properties they had in their portfolio? And they're like, here you go. It's on you.

[00:02:50] Zihao Wang: No, so it was very much of a teamwork in the beginning, right? So going to properties on my parents and I would go together and we would look at different properties. We would look at our current portfolio. And if there is anything That needs to be fixed. we would go fix it together, go to Home Depot together. so it's definitely teamwork. and my parents are also very hands-on operators. they're not just the kind that lays back and allows other people to do most of the heavy lifting. And so by them being very active themselves, I think. It also just personality wise transferred to me, also being very hands on and active into our portfolio.

[00:03:28] Tim Little: Yeah. That's awesome. and I recommend to everyone, even if they don't want to be a property manager, or personally manage their own properties, they should do it at least for a time. Just so they understand the process, know what to look for, and really understand what breaks and what needs to be fixed and how to take care of tenants.I  think that's a huge part of it. Even if you only do it for a short time. 'cause I did it on my own. triplex that I had, and I would probably never do it again, but it was a huge learning experience for me. So I think that's great. another thing I wanted to ask you about. you were getting that hands-on experience. I assume at the same time they were introducing you to The numbers of these deals and how that side works so that you are getting that again, that, that introduction into, I don't want to say necessarily underwriting to that extent, but maybe that was the case. Maybe they were showing you, full on underwriting and explaining how that works. Cause again, that's something that a lot of people aren't necessarily ready for at first, and they have to dip their toes into it, before they get comfortable with doing it.

[00:04:34] Zihao Wang: Yeah, in underwriting, really the most important thing is how, your operational projections throughout, your whole period, right? How it starts from revenue and then flows, you All the way down to net operating income. And so from a property management side, you're really seeing that in real time, right? Every month the rent gets collected and then you have to go through insurance expenses, repairs and maintenance expenses, property management fees and all those expenses. And so by being on the property management side, you're actually witnessing the flow of the entire financial statement, right? part of my job when I was on the property management side was doing the accounting, right? going through the exercise of seeing how different line items flow through that P and L, was really important and a great exercise that led, that kind of flowed into underwriting. so even though it wasn't like, A very specific task of opening up an Excel and underwriting a deal. a lot of things did correlate and transfer, from property management into acquisitions.

[00:05:33] Tim Little: Yeah, I think that's true, right? You're seeing those numbers in real time as something breaks or you need to replace something else, which is, it gives you context for knowing how much things should be, in the future. If you do move to like third party property management later and, really staying on top of those numbers comes almost even more important. Once you have that third party property management, because I'm not saying they'll get away with what they can. But at the same time, they may take liberties with expenses that you wouldn't take. Were you handling them directly? So I think that's a big and important part of it too.

[00:06:11] Zihao Wang: Yeah, for sure. Being close to your assets and understanding those expenses is definitely key to success in real estate.

[00:06:18] Tim Little: Yeah. So talk to me about the transition from, you went to the property management side to some more active investing side. What did that look like? And what was say like the first deal that you really got involved with on that, on those side of things,

[00:06:33] Zihao Wang: Yeah. My parents never really wanted me to stay forever on the property management side. There's not much growth potential there. it was more so just an exercise to learn the ins and outs of real estate, right? The thinking is if you want to be a great investor, you've got to be first a great operator. and so it was more just a bridge from being completely out of the industry to being an investor in a great, And a great person on the finance side, right? So as I moved on to the acquisitions and capital markets side where that's where kind of they saw me growing and You know really developing my company And so it was more just understanding property management and applying those skills into underwriting and acquisitions and by that time, we already had a pretty big portfolio built up.   So I wasn't underwriting really small deals. I don't actually remember the very first deal that I underwrote. but we already had a good portfolio built. So it was already a template there. There was already a template that was made, and underwriting some bigger deals at the time.

[00:07:35] Tim Little: And did you get involved with raising capital on those early deals? Or is that something that kind of came later?

[00:07:42] Zihao Wang: Yeah. So it came a little bit later. it started, it's like a bridge, between acquisitions to capital markets as well. started more on the debt side of the capital stack since it's more transactional rather than relationship based. And learned a lot about sourcing different kinds of debt and then went on to developing relationships with equity partners, right? I wouldn't say there's necessarily an order as to which of those came first. You go to events and conferences and you meet both debt and equity partners, right? It's just, I think equity came a lot later simply because it's more relationship based, whereas debt is much more transactional in nature.

[00:08:21] Tim Little: And how have you guys primarily funded your deals? And I'm assuming it's going to be a mix, but in terms of, like private equity and family office, investing in your deals versus, the smaller,I'd say like passive investors through a syndication model, or again, it may be, it's a mix of the two, Or deal dependent.

[00:08:42] Zihao Wang: Yeah, so typically our capital stack is filled. 65 percent of it is filled with debt. And then the 35 percent is equity. of that 35 percent equity, we really only deal with high net worth individuals and family offices and fund to funds. I've never really raised 25K or 50K or 100K checks. our minimum typically is 500K plus.  and that's just simply because of the size of deals we do. It's very hard to raise, from a bunch of, Different people with smaller checks. We need a much bigger team in order to do that. We're a rather lean deal team. And so we've really been targeting the half a million dollars to five million dollar single investor checks And so usually our deals wouldn't have more than five investors and that would be enough to fill our capital stack

[00:09:29] Tim Little: Yeah. And it's interesting because there's, pros and cons of each way. when you have those larger investors, maybe you lose some level of control, but, from a, a management perspective, it's a lot easier to handle five investors and, the questions and requirements,and legal paperwork associated with that than say, having 35, 000 or a hundred,50, 000 investors in a deal. So I guess it's a matter of what works for you. And it sounds like you've found your niche in those high net worth individuals, family offices, et cetera.

[00:10:02] Zihao Wang: Yeah, and most of our investors are sophisticated investors who've been through that. doing real estate for a very long time. So sometimes, giving away some of those major decision rights is actually beneficial to the deal since they would come up with some great ideas that they've experienced in the past. And from those, it's putting many smart people's minds together, right? Many sophisticated and smart people's minds on how to operate, when to exit, where they see the economy, Oh, I guess economic markets are, where they see different kind of indicators. And so from those, I actually see quite a bit of benefit, by having more sophisticated investors.

[00:10:39] Tim Little: Yeah, that's a good point that I probably don't highlight enough because I've. A bit jaded on some like family office and private equity things, but they certainly do bring a level of sophistication That can actually be a benefit. and a lot of times they have Entire teams that are dedicated to doing underwriting legal teams, etc That, that kind of provide a level of redundancy for whatever you're doing, but in, in a positive way to make sure that you aren't missing something, like you said, or providing ideas that maybe you hadn't thought of to bring even more value to that deal. 

[00:11:16] Zihao Wang: Okay.

[00:11:16] Tim Little: All right. I want to go into where you invest. And you said it's nationwide. And maybe you could talk about it, but looking at your portfolio on your webpage, I did notice that a lot of them were in California. And it's funny. Because some people tell me straight up, they will. They will never invest in California for a variety of reasons, right? But you've been able to make it work. So how have you been able to make it work? And why do you think that California specifically is a great place to invest, or at least with you, because you have some competitive advantage there?

[00:11:49] Zihao Wang: Yeah, so two thirds of our portfolio is located in Southern California, and the remaining one third is in North Carolina and Florida. the reason why I guess most people don't really like California. I really hear two popular reasons. One of them is the legislation, and the second one is the lack of cash flow.  And they're both correct and valid that, politically, it's more of a tenant friendly state and then also, a more appreciation driven market with lower cap rates. typically you'll see cap rates, maybe a hundred basis points lower than,Texas or, some of the more cash flowing states. And I guess I'll address the appreciation first. Essentially, my investors are the family offices and high net worth individuals that aren't dependent upon the monthly check or like the quarterly distribution, right? And so they actually prefer a more steady and appreciation driven market, rather than a high cash flowing market where,maybe you buy today at 60k a door and then three years later, you can only sell at 80k a door. Whereas here we're seeing many properties. we buy it at 200, 200 a door, 200k a door and then you can sell it in a couple years at 350k a door, right? So it's much more appreciation driven. And, not having the cash flow is actually okay for them because of their net worth and how they see investing. And so typically we don't do any distributions in the interim of the whole period, right? It's a check in the beginning and then a check out at the end. there's very little cashflow anyways. so not much to distribute there. So for that, it's more of just like an investor profile.and on the political side, this actually plays into our competitive advantage, because we're based locally here. We started investing back in 2008 in Southern California. So it's been 16 years that we've been navigating the SoCal market. We know the legislation very well. We've seen it change as well. We know the people that are in charge of those changes as well and how they think and go about with their legislation. and we've been, Hit by rent control before, we've also navigated rent control and dug ourself out of pitfalls as well and so by having the boots on the ground here and also the 16 year experience investing in southern california. It actually plays to our competitive advantage of being local and hands on operators and because Of the environment here. There's very little competition. Most syndicators and institutions like the business friendly environments of Texas, North Carolina, and then some of those more central and eastern states. and because of the low competition. We're actually able to get deals on a very good basis. And so by leveraging our hands-on operations and knowledge of the market, as well as the fact that there's very little competition, we're actually able to do really well in this market. And, we've proven our track record many times. We've had six exits so far, and they've all been,in the above 20 percent IRRs and averaging out to around 30%. And so it's all been great exits and profitable journeys.

 

[00:15:43] Zihao Wang: Silence.

[00:16:01] Tim Little: locations for where they're going to invest. Sometimes they just get investors. Gets stuck in the things you always hear about certain places, of course, California being tenant friendly, et cetera. but if, and then going back to the appreciation driven aspect of it, that means you, your investor profile, what they're looking for with regards to, Returns with regards to expectations of distributions. And, for someone who deals with retail investors,50, 000, a hundred thousand that they are usually looking for those distributions. So it's really interesting to hear you say Hey, but with this demographic, they aren't looking for that. They understand that they are going to get the returns that they expect, but on the backend they're willing to wait for that, right? Because it makes sense for them. Their mission is to deploy that capital and have it work. They don't need to see that, that check every quarter. in order for them to say they're doing their job, as long as at the end of the day, three, five, seven years down the road, they're hitting those return objectives, then they're happy and so I think, people who are just getting into this, they really need to understand that investor profile, who are the folks that they're trying to target, because those deals need to make sense for them. For those investors. And that's why sometimes you, you have to, tell investors like, Hey, this might not be the right deal for you because I know you're looking for this and it won't match that. So especially when Capital raisers, syndicators are new. it's easy to get tempted into saying yes to every investor, but for the sake of the investor and yourself, sometimes you have to say no, if it doesn't match, if it's not a good match. So I think that makes a lot of sense. And then you talked about. that competitive advantage that you have in California, one with the political side of things, I think it sounds like you're able to advocate for yourself because you have the relationships with decision makers, organizations, that have influence on some of these laws, regulations that are taking place. so that works to your advantage. And the other thing is a lot of competition is just priced out.or is intimidated enough that they don't want to jump into that market. and so I've heard that too, from other folks who invest, say in like Boston, Massachusetts or New York city, they're able to make it work because they have those personal connections and there's so little competition that the connections they do have, they're able to find those deals that other people wouldn't be willing to look for or pay for At those premiums, but they know that they're going to hit their returns on the backend. So I think that that makes a whole lot of sense.

[00:18:44] Zihao Wang: I think, California overall is a, either you're local to California and you'll do really well or don't even touch it if you're not going to be local, because things change a lot here. So you really need to have relationships and be very local to do really well. But if you think about the state of the market here, when the economy is not doing so well, the amount of properties that are given back to lenders is significantly less here than it is in the Sunbelt and maybe the Midwest. and that's driven by appreciation, right? And appreciation factors. and so from that perspective, it's a much safer market to be in, even though you have to know what you're doing in order to really play here. Silence.

[00:19:40] Tim Little: with a lot of investors and that's our partner section. And while some of those were big names, a lot of them look like local banks or other businesses that you work with. Can you talk about how you were able to build those relationships and how important has it been to the success of your business?

[00:19:57] Zihao Wang: Yeah, those relationships really were built upon deals, right? So when we do a deal, and we need a specific service from one of our partners, then those relationships naturally nurture and,and after repeat, deals and repeat uses, then we become really good friends that we use for other deals as well. And partners are really important for our business because you can't do everything yourself. a lot of times it's a lot better,and almost, it's just a lot better basically to find an expert in the field, to help you with something rather than you trying to figure something out yourself. and by having the relationships I placed a lot of lending relationships as well as architectural and engineering partners on our website, those all contribute to the success that we get in a deal, right? Without a good lender, your deal can go south very quickly and without good service providers like the engineers and the architects,your deal can also go south because things will get delayed. So it's after doing so many deals here, we've built relationships that are very strong and help us, make sure that deals run on time and also, provide the returns that we need.

[00:21:10] Tim Little: Yeah. And you talked about architects and engineers, are you doing any like ground up development or is it all just, renovation?

[00:21:17] Zihao Wang: in Southern California, we do a lot of ADUs, which is basically, it's not fully ground up, but it's basically,where you have an existing multifamily property and there's maybe like a garage or a carport or, some extra space,in the courtyard that you can add in some units, and this happens because California is like heavily populated and there isn't enough housing supply, right? So it doesn't really happen in Texas because there's so much land that you can just build a big building next to another big building, right? and so this is something I would say it's unique to California, Washington, New York, and stuff like that. It's just where the supply and demand is so off balance that creative strategies come into place.

[00:21:59] Tim Little: Okay. So like when you, as part of your Business plan. When you buy a property, you may identify a space that has enough room to, to build an ADU and that'll be part of your plan. Is that right? 

[00:22:12] Zihao Wang: yeah. so one of our projects that's just, that the ADU's just finished actually, was a 44 unit property in Anaheim. and they had really big courtyard spaces. And so we were able to build 12 ADU's to increase the unit count of 56. So it's like a 30 percent increase in housing there. and, those new constructed units are really nice units since they're detached, right? So you'll see, higher ceilings. they're just like new construction features that you typically won't find in an older building.

[00:22:44] Tim Little: And from a legal and permitting perspective, there's no real issue because it's already zoned as multifamily, right?

[00:22:51] Zihao Wang: It's zoned as multifamily, but there's also ADU laws that you have to follow. Certainly,different cities have different rules. Some will allow you to build like If it's attached 25 percent of your existing unit count, or if it's detached, like two of them. so different cities have different laws, that you have to pay attention to. and also when it comes to architectural engineering, that's where kind of our partners play a big role because they're, you typically like, they, they work in specific cities very often. So they know the plan checkers, but also,the people that are, Making those decisions at a really fast pace, our ADU plan.

[00:23:28] Tim Little: Okay. Awesome. Yeah. I've never really heard that, that tactic before. So that's interesting to hear. Like you said, though, I think it makes sense because it's just not something that makes sense to implement in most places other than those really, dense, expensive, areas. all now let's zoom out a little bit, and just talk, general multifamily. And you and I both know that the landscape has changed a lot. Over the past, say two years, but I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on where you think that it'll be say two years from now? And we're already seeing changes day to day in this environment. So I want to hear your thoughts on that.

[00:24:07] Zihao Wang: I think two years from now will definitely be a better market, simply because I don't think it can get much worse than what it is today. If you look at Some belts and some of those markets, transaction volume is down 80%. and so just from the amount of capital on the sidelines that need to be deployed, transaction volume will go up. and as of today, September 18th, the Fed just cut 50 basis points on the rates. So from, A, lending perspective. We're also seeing looser lending and 10 year treasury. I think today is like 3. 6 now. so it's also just a better environment for getting loans. And so encouraging buyers to be more active on the acquisition side. and then also important to be cautious still, though, that, a lot of sellers expectations haven't really changed as much. And this is because they're looking at comps, right? And typically they look at comps two, three years out. And if you do that, it's like 2021, 2022, right? And so there was a completely different market back then. And so those comps can't be comps for today's market, even though they might be the same building in a very similar location. In the same market. So I would say still be cautious about where you need to get in deals at, be reasonable with your projections, especially rent growth and cap rates. And then, but I do see, the market is getting better as, One, new construction stops in those Sunbelt markets and two, also lending becomes easier and as lending becomes easier, equity wants to come into the table as well since they can't get high returns, by having in a bank account anymore. yeah, I think the overall market will definitely get better.

[00:25:46] Tim Little: Yeah. And I think you hit on a couple of important points, especially when it comes to comps, right? Because to your previous point, if deal flow is down 80%, there's just not a whole lot of comps and in some areas there's virtually no. Like real comps for the properties that you're looking at. So you're almost having to compare it to some, a sale that was, one, two years ago, which was a completely different market and unrealistic. and then I think, other folks, hopefully, with rates, coming down. There's a lot of folks who are on the ropes right now, because they have rate caps that are about to expire, and they need to refinance. So hopefully this will provide some relief, when it comes to those refis and, maybe it's not a cash in refi anymore. Maybe they can at least break even. I still don't think there's going to be a whole lot of cash out refis. Right now, but,any news is good news, like you said, if you're at the bottom, the only place you can go is up. So I think that there is a small ray of sunshine for those folks in some tough places. Other deals are just, they're too far gone, at this point to, To make it out alive. And we've already seen that, with some deals going under banks, repossessing, on multifamily properties, but yeah, to you, to your point, I think a lot of the inventory that was going to come online, I think most of it was in 2024, in, at least in the Sunbelt region where they got, A whole lot of inventory. but after that, there's a lull, right? Because there was no new construction started. So we have to look out, those two to three years to see these, these peaks and valleys of where that construction is going to be and use that as a guide post, but not a perfect metric for where things will be in the future.

[00:27:33] Zihao Wang: and I think for listeners who got in at the wrong time when they got in at the peak of the pandemic, it's important to really recognize that real estate is a long term play, right? It's not like, you go in today and you'll make money a year from now or eight months from now. and if you look at the long term. returns of multifamily. It's been very stable and it's been steadily going up as well. and so I think Don't be discouraged. by where we are today know that the fed has already been signaling, rate cuts and lenders will become Looser and so from that perspective just try to continue doing your operations Make sure your property is operating well At its best possible level and after you go through this time of, I guess market downturn, things will go back to normal and multifamily overall as an asset class is has really good fundamentals. and so it's really still a good asset class to be in. Silence.

[00:28:44] Tim Little: their money and exiting on deals in, in two years that were supposed to be in five. And then, Right now is not reality either. They're the two extremes that we've run into, but eventually it's going to even out to what the average deal looks like in this industry. And so you're right. it's easy for people to get discouraged, which, say you lose your money, then I get it. But if they're nervous and the deal has that timeline, then things will probably work out. And that's the advantage to having that extra time. Cause time heals all wounds, even in real estate, because you could work out to that next phase of the cycle and. As long, like you said, as long as the deal is operating effectively, then you should be all right. Just don't expect your deals to go full cycle in two years and double your money like they did in the peak times, but don't expect it for deals to just go under immediately. like they did with things that went bad because neither of those is normal.

[00:29:43] Zihao Wang: right. 

[00:29:44] Tim Little: Allright. Well this has been an awesome conversation but we do need to transition to the turbo round. So I'm gonna ask you three questions that I ask every guest that's on the show. I just ask for a quick honest answer. Zihao you ready.

[00:29:56] Zihao Wang: Let's do it.

[00:29:57] Tim Little: All right. First one. What is one red flag every investor should look out for?

[00:30:02] Zihao Wang: cap rate compression, your exit cap rates being much lower than your entry cap rates. and the logic is very simple, right? It's basically saying that if you buy a property today and you do nothing to the property, the NOI changes by zero and then you exit. A few years down the line, you'll still make a lot of money, which from a value add or value creation perspective doesn't make sense. watch out for capital compression.

[00:30:25] Tim Little: Yeah, absolutely. All right. What is a myth about this business you would like to set straight?

[00:30:30] Zihao Wang: a myth is that you need to know everything before getting started. In fact, I don't think anybody knows everything about a certain topic before they get started. you learn a lot of things when you're hands on and actually in a deal. you'll learn much more than you think, when you're actually in a deal. So I would say have the courage to get started, get started with a deal, whether that be small or big and, learn from that instead of trying to prepare yourself. Oh, of course, prepare yourself,beforehand, but don't overdo it.

[00:30:59] Tim Little: Yeah, absolutely. And what I tell people is, like you said, get yourself to a level where you feel confident enough to get into a deal, but then, learn why you earn, by virtue of committing your money, you have the right to ask questions of the sponsor, and I encourage everyone to do so that is, passively investing. All right. Final question. What does success look like to you?

[00:31:21] Zihao Wang: I'm a very professional and career driven person. So success for me looks like, growing Motiva holdings to having billions of dollars, AUM, and then also raising from institutional capital partners, and one day really making a brand name for myself, in the real estate industry.

[00:31:38] Tim Little: There you go. Awesome. All right. Zihao, thank you for coming on and giving us some insight into your business. I think it's been great. Please tell our listeners how they can get ahold of you. And if there's anything else that you'd like to share.

[00:31:50] Zihao Wang: I can be found on LinkedIn, as well as on my website, www.motivaholdings.com

[00:31:56] Tim Little: All right.

[00:31:57] Zihao Wang: good luck to everyone.

[00:31:58] Tim Little: thanks. We'll have all that information in the show notes. I appreciate you coming on and look forward to continuing to see you do big things on your journey to multifamily millions.

[00:32:07] Zihao Wang: Thank you so much for having me, Tim.



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TIM LITTLE (FOUNDER/ CEO)

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